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READ MY LIPS...NO NEW TAXES?

mike10k
April 10, 2012 10:55PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Kathaariancode
I'm not a Christian nor would I consider myself anything right of center politically, but I'd like to defend capitalist Christians if anyone is still interested.

When Christianity became popular in the Gentile community there already existed a certain level of ethical and political thought uncommon for that period, so many of Jesus' teachings were sort of blended in with the existing ethical framework. Despite the fact that Aristotle, who had tremendous influence on western political thought, never actually experienced capitalism, the argument most often cited by Christians can be trace back to one of his critiques on Plato, who advocated commonly owned property among certain groups of people in his imaginary city outlined in The Republic. He writes:

"We may add that a very great pleasure is to be found in doing kindness and giving some help to friends, guests or comrades; and such kindness and help become possible only when property is privately owned... In a city which is excessively unified no man can show himself generous, or indeed do a generous act; for the functions of generosity consists in the proper use which is made of property."

Aristotle wasn't talking about charity exactly, since charity for itself is an almost entirely christian idea. However, this makes sense from the Christian standpoint. When the government forceably strips wealth from some citizens in order to provide for other citizens, the moral value of the transaction is lost, since the former didn't choose to be kind to others. Charity is only possible if there is such a thing as private property, which essentially Aristotle's argument.

So if Christians want to act morally according to the teachings of Jesus, they need access to wealth and inequality, both of which are bountiful in a capitalist economy. This seems odd to secularists who look at the suffering caused by capitalism and remember how much that Jesus guy babbled about helping poor people, but for Christians, this is their mandate, not the government's.

That's my two cents anyhow.

holy crap katcode, you are the bomb!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2012 10:56PM by mike10k.
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betamax
April 11, 2012 05:09AM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Also, I’m curious if you could expand on this a bit as it doesn't sit true with me.
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since charity for itself is an almost entirely christian idea.


let's get dressed up in costumes and dance by the bar.
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dtrom4
April 11, 2012 09:24AM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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betamax
Also, I’m curious if you could expand on this a bit as it doesn't sit true with me.
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since charity for itself is an almost entirely christian idea.

1) Ditto. I'm sure there are some technical concepts/definitions relating to charity that are inherently (or originally) Christian, but I'm very skeptical of a claim that the broad concept of charity wasn't around before then. I mean, how does "We may add that a very great pleasure is to be found in doing kindness and giving some help to friends, guests or comrades" not mean charity?

2) I think the idea of Christians "needing" inequality or poverty so they can be charitable is totally backwards. You're not a Good Samaritan if you help someone up after beating the crap out of them. If that's the case, why not try to alleviate all poverty, but then just stick a couple of poor people in a zoo and throw pennies at them so you have someone to "help". Besides, what about Jesus' direct orders to give up everything you have to follow him?

I think betamax's point on the difference between charity and support is key here. You're not being "charitable" to support the poor though taxes, because you don't have a choice. But if the purpose of charity is to make yourself feel good rather than provide help to others, then it's a fundamentally patronizing and degrading activity. It's donating to a cause that'll give you a bracelet to wear instead of one that addresses underlying problems.

3) More broadly, I think it's fine for Christians to be capitalists or to decide how best to live their faith. But if they are going to justify picking and choosing which ideas from the Bible to live by or interpreting what Jesus said in different contexts, then they need to recognize that there are a lot of ways to interpret things, and it is nothing short of arrogance to believe you have the one, true interpretation.

4) How did this thread become entirely about Christianity? (I mean, I can see how, but it's kind of odd.)
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 10:26AM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
ditto on beta and dtrom, you guys are bringing it!

yeah, c'mon back katcode, you got some splainin' to do! winking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 10:26AM by mike10k.
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betamax
April 11, 2012 12:29PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
mike: stoking them fires of debate since at least 3000k.


let's get dressed up in costumes and dance by the bar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 12:29PM by betamax.
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 12:40PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
you guys put things into words way better than i can. such diverse ideas and thoughts and smart people should join as one in this thread.

like voltron.
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dtrom4
April 11, 2012 01:46PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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mike10k
you guys put things into words way better than i can. such diverse ideas and thoughts and smart people should join as one in this thread.

like voltron.
I will say, though, that you put things into pictures way better than the rest of us.
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:00PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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betamax
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Taking wealth from those who have it and redistributing it to those who "need" it is the height of irresponsibility. First, it serves as a de-motivator to those who seek to maximize their earnings, as they know that the government will take it from them; Second, it serves as a de-motivator to those with wealth who wish to choose how they provide to charity, as the government dwindles their disposable income with the bureaucratic hubris that the government knows how to provide for charity better than the individual does; Third, it serves as a de-motivator for those who are the "poorest," as they know that the government will provide for them, and permits, or even forces, the poorest classes to continue in the patterns that prevent them from earning sufficient wages for themselves. While these statements are over-generalizations, as of course some portion of the sick and the elderly will need some assistance, the umbrella point remains.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 02:03PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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dtrom4
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mike10k
you guys put things into words way better than i can. such diverse ideas and thoughts and smart people should join as one in this thread.

like voltron.
I will say, though, that you put things into pictures way better than the rest of us.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 02:03PM by mike10k.
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 02:05PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Wild Creature
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betamax
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Taking wealth from those who have it and redistributing it to those who "need" it is the height of irresponsibility.

how about taking a relative teensie from the ultra-wealthy and distributing it to those who would find this teensie to actually be enough to buy a two floor car garage with an elevator in it. ?
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 02:11PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
haiku for the word 'should'
the rich should help their country out
they won't go to war
so they should help the poor
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:14PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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mike10k
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Wild Creature
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betamax
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Taking wealth from those who have it and redistributing it to those who "need" it is the height of irresponsibility.

how about taking a relative teensie from the ultra-wealthy and distributing it to those who would find this teensie to actually be enough to buy a two floor car garage with an elevator in it. ?

nope.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:16PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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mike10k
haiku for the word 'should'
the rich should help their country out
they won't go to war
so they should help the poor

Sarah Palin's son went to war.

So did John McCain's.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:17PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
also, if there are any other wildly unpopular positions to take, let me know. i'm on it.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 02:22PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Wild Creature
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mike10k
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Wild Creature
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betamax
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Taking wealth from those who have it and redistributing it to those who "need" it is the height of irresponsibility.

how about taking a relative teensie from the ultra-wealthy and distributing it to those who would find this teensie to actually be enough to buy a two floor car garage with an elevator in it. ?

nope.

not one red cent?

also, i wonder why it's such a wildly unpopular opinion you have!

regardless, wc, you still rool the roost. all arguments should have "the wildly popular vs. the wildly unpopular." in fact, we'll probably see this actual contest in november!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 02:24PM by mike10k.
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:26PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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mike10k
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Wild Creature
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mike10k
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Wild Creature
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betamax
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Taking wealth from those who have it and redistributing it to those who "need" it is the height of irresponsibility.

how about taking a relative teensie from the ultra-wealthy and distributing it to those who would find this teensie to actually be enough to buy a two floor car garage with an elevator in it. ?

nope.

not one red cent?

also, i wonder why it's such a wildly unpopular opinion you have!

regardless, wc, you still rool the roost. all arguments should have "the wildly popular vs. the wildly unpopular." in fact, we'll probably see this actual contest in november!

not one red cent more than the 39 percent the "ultra-wealthy" already pay. I think that's enough taxes for anybody to pay. however, i am happy to get rid of many of the loop-holes that permit people of all income ranges to avoid paying their fair share. mostly i'm thinking of the marriage deduction and the homeowner's deduction which, if both were removed, would pretty much solve the deficit problem in a year.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:28PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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mike10k
in fact, we'll probably see this actual contest in november!

my prediction for 11/12 -- President Obama wins well over 300 electoral votes, and soundly defeats Mr. Romney.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 02:33PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Wild Creature
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mike10k
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Wild Creature
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mike10k
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Wild Creature
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betamax
@KC, Good post, but I think there's an important distinction to make between 'charity' and ‘support’. When the Govt. takes wealth from those who have it, and redistributes to those who need it, it isn’t acting charitably but it is acting responsibly in supporting the poorest.

Taking wealth from those who have it and redistributing it to those who "need" it is the height of irresponsibility.

how about taking a relative teensie from the ultra-wealthy and distributing it to those who would find this teensie to actually be enough to buy a two floor car garage with an elevator in it. ?

nope.

not one red cent?

also, i wonder why it's such a wildly unpopular opinion you have!

regardless, wc, you still rool the roost. all arguments should have "the wildly popular vs. the wildly unpopular." in fact, we'll probably see this actual contest in november!

not one red cent more than the 39 percent the "ultra-wealthy" already pay. I think that's enough taxes for anybody to pay. however, i am happy to get rid of many of the loop-holes that permit people of all income ranges to avoid paying their fair share. mostly i'm thinking of the marriage deduction and the homeowner's deduction which, if both were removed, would pretty much solve the deficit problem in a year.

the "ultra-wealthy", i assume i meant the 1% at the top everybody talks about....39% of their annual pay goes to the government? i was under the impression that whole warren buffett thing was the case, that he paid less tax than his secretary....or some such.

school me!

(and i'm with you on the tax loophole thing, i think that's one of the "wildly popular" ones, right?)
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 02:34PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Wild Creature
mostly i'm thinking of the marriage deduction and the homeowner's deduction which, if both were removed, would pretty much solve the deficit problem in a year.

i don't know anything about this. why aren't more people behind this?
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 02:44PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
more people are not behind it because most people are married and own homes, and it would be against their self-interest to advocate removing those deductions.

as for the buffett rule, that only relates to capital gains, not wages or other income. we had a big discussion in some other thread about whether capital gains should be taxed at a lower level than other income, and that's something on which reasonable minds could differ.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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Kathaariancode
April 11, 2012 03:00PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
Fanks Mike!


I'm not detracting from social support programs. Despite Wild Creature's arguments, I think having social support programs is a necessary evil, and that welfare and unemployment insurance should go on, but that's just my opinion.


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dtrom4
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betamax
Also, I’m curious if you could expand on this a bit as it doesn't sit true with me.
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since charity for itself is an almost entirely christian idea.

1) Ditto. I'm sure there are some technical concepts/definitions relating to charity that are inherently (or originally) Christian, but I'm very skeptical of a claim that the broad concept of charity wasn't around before then. I mean, how does "We may add that a very great pleasure is to be found in doing kindness and giving some help to friends, guests or comrades" not mean charity?


The main distinction that I'd like to make between Aristotle's notion of giving and the Christian notion of charity is that the Christian notion implies underlying altruism. Christians are supposed to give even when no one can see them giving, whereas Aristotle wanted to help others in order to reach a state he called Eudaimonia, a word usually translated as happiness but has strong implications of honor and and recognition for one's kindness. He thought that only free, landowning men could obtain this. Slaves, women and children could never be recognized for their good acts and because of this be considered having Eudaimonia.

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dtrom
2) I think the idea of Christians "needing" inequality or poverty so they can be charitable is totally backwards. You're not a Good Samaritan if you help someone up after beating the crap out of them. If that's the case, why not try to alleviate all poverty, but then just stick a couple of poor people in a zoo and throw pennies at them so you have someone to "help". Besides, what about Jesus' direct orders to give up everything you have to follow him?

I think betamax's point on the difference between charity and support is key here. You're not being "charitable" to support the poor though taxes, because you don't have a choice. But if the purpose of charity is to make yourself feel good rather than provide help to others, then it's a fundamentally patronizing and degrading activity. It's donating to a cause that'll give you a bracelet to wear instead of one that addresses underlying problems.

Me too. Like I said I'm not a Christian but the argument I've presented to answer Mike's question is similar to ones I've read from the likes of Dinesh D'Souza and other Right wing christian apologetics. His "Letters to a Young Conservative" is a great read if you like politics and you'd like to hear a very simplified, very well reasoned account of American conservatism.
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 03:08PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Kathaariancode

I'm not detracting from social support programs. Despite Wild Creature's arguments, I think having social support programs is a necessary evil, and that welfare and unemployment insurance should go on, but that's just my opinion.

Just for the record (to the extent a forum is a record), I'm not against all social support programs, and agree that many are necessary. There are lots of social services I would not consider redistributing wealth, but rather a foundation on which society can continue and thrive. Also, welfare doesn't really exist anymore, and unemployment insurance is not a social service - it is something we all pay into when we work, and something we can utilize in tough times to help us make it through those tough times until we can get the next job. Unemployment insurance extensions are a different thing, altogether, but I won't get into that.

Anyways, I enjoy your posts, KC! Thanks.


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 03:15PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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Wild Creature
more people are not behind it because most people are married and own homes, and it would be against their self-interest to advocate removing those deductions.

as for the buffett rule, that only relates to capital gains, not wages or other income. we had a big discussion in some other thread about whether capital gains should be taxed at a lower level than other income, and that's something on which reasonable minds could differ.

ah, gotcha thanks. capital gains.

but this...

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the "ultra-wealthy", i assume i meant the 1% at the top everybody talks about....39% of their annual pay goes to the government?

...this is correct?

i wonder what percentage of my annual pay goes to the government.

i also wonder if i'm a typical uninformed american.

i refuse to learn from anyone but you people!
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Wild Creature
April 11, 2012 03:25PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
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mike10k

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the "ultra-wealthy", i assume i meant the 1% at the top everybody talks about....39% of their annual pay goes to the government?

...this is correct?

yes, this is correct, although there are deductions that they take, just like any other tax payer


The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis
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mike10k
April 11, 2012 03:27PM | Re: they can strip search me anytime they want, but they can't make me buy health insurance!
ok, so they're not really giving 39% of their annual income to the government. they get the best tax loopholes money can buy so that they end up giving less of their annual income to the government than say, their secretaries, who can't afford the best tax loopholes money can buy?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2012 03:28PM by mike10k.
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