So, I was listening to a lossless copy of LOWTC at a very high volume and the sound of the piano kept striking me. It sounds so fantastic, the way you can hear the damper pedal at some places, and the delicate sound of the strings vibrating, and all kinds of other awesome sounds. So, where was the mic positioned? It's not like the piano recordings I normally hear in other places. There's gotta be some trick to the recording of it...? or is it just an awesome-sounding piano? or an awesome-sounding JD?

Can anyone clear that up for me?

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do I have to hit you over the head with it?
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I know what you're talking about, man.
I'd love to know more, too.

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I keep particularly listening to the petal on the piano pieces, it makes me think of it actually being performed which has been an interesting change.
But yeah, it would be great to know what the setup was.

I'm willing to bet the mics were in the piano with the lid fully open (or off), probably around 6-8" above the strings. Low mic closer to the back of the piano, high mic a bit closer to the hammers. (Don't quote me on that last part - there's a million ways to record a piano.)

The real reason you're hearing the pedal action so much is that there's nothing else going on in the track to mask it. On a (relatively) close-miked solo piano, you'll hear things like the felts lifting off the strings and the pedals being pressed. If the piano is in a song with a bunch of other tracks, you probably wouldn't hear all the mechanical noises, or at least not as immediately. This has been on my mind a lot lately, a couple of weeks ago I did a piano session and was commenting to the other engineer about how much we could hear the felts lifting off the strings when the pianist pressed the sustain pedal!

But yeah, I love that stuff. It's part of the instrument, and it makes it more human (to me, at least) when you can hear it. I'd guess that the piano songs on this record were recorded by Scott Solter, because you can hear similar pedal noises on the Satanic Messiah stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2009 12:43AM by lincolnic.

It almost sounds like the vocal and piano on the solo-piano songs were recorded with just one mic, hence all of the noise of pedals and piano strings and such. It just sounds like a room in which a song is being played, as opposed to a sterile studio environment.

I'm actually really interested in the answer myself. In a couple of weeks, I will be recording some piano and have never done this. I'd love to be able to achieve a mixture of TLOTWTC's sound and Johnny Cash's version of "I Hung My Head" which is so aggressive that I can almost feel it in my gut at times. I know that distance from the source and whatnot are all very dependent on the mic being used but I still would like to know what is conventional. Regardless, I'm sure I won't be able to achieve either of those sounds with the stuff I will be using to record. Oh well.

HoodRiverGin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It almost sounds like the vocal and piano on the
> solo-piano songs were recorded with just one mic,
> hence all of the noise of pedals and piano strings
> and such. It just sounds like a room in which a
> song is being played, as opposed to a sterile
> studio environment.


Sounds like there's at least three mics in play here. The vocals wouldn't be in the same mic, you can tell because they're so close and direct. The piano was recorded in stereo, which needs (at least) two mics. So that's three - I'm sure they used some room mics as well. Most studios have some amount of liveness to them; the "sterile studio environment" hasn't really been popular since the 70s, when everybody wanted as much dryness and isolation as possible.

your favorite effigy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm actually really interested in the answer
> myself. In a couple of weeks, I will be recording
> some piano and have never done this. I'd love to
> be able to achieve a mixture of TLOTWTC's sound
> and Johnny Cash's version of "I Hung My Head"
> which is so aggressive that I can almost feel it
> in my gut at times. I know that distance from the
> source and whatnot are all very dependent on the
> mic being used but I still would like to know what
> is conventional. Regardless, I'm sure I won't be
> able to achieve either of those sounds with the
> stuff I will be using to record. Oh well.


The short answer: put your head in the piano and see where it sounds best. That's where you should put your microphone.

The longer answer: it depends on the sound you're going for, and also the kind of piano you're recording. Grand? Baby grand? Upright? Also, are you recording with two mics or just one? If two, try and use two of the same microphone model. This'll keep the frequency response of the instrument even across the stereo field. If you want a more aggressive sound, try miking closer to the hammers (but probably not right on top of them). You'll want to be around 6-8" above the strings, but you'll have to experiment to find the right spot. If you're recording in stereo, you may want to move your low mic a little farther back from the hammers. You want those low notes to register as actual notes, and not get too percussive. If you're using one mic, you'll probably want it to be centered around the middle of the range you're playing in. Some light compression wouldn't hurt, either.

I should point out that the above advice is assuming you're not using an upright piano. If you are using an upright, it's going to be trickier to get a full sound out of it - again, use your ears and see where it sounds best.

lincolnic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> your favorite effigy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I'm actually really interested in the answer
> > myself. In a couple of weeks, I will be
> recording
> > some piano and have never done this. I'd love
> to
> > be able to achieve a mixture of TLOTWTC's sound
> > and Johnny Cash's version of "I Hung My Head"
> > which is so aggressive that I can almost feel
> it
> > in my gut at times. I know that distance from
> the
> > source and whatnot are all very dependent on
> the
> > mic being used but I still would like to know
> what
> > is conventional. Regardless, I'm sure I won't
> be
> > able to achieve either of those sounds with the
> > stuff I will be using to record. Oh well.
>
>
> The short answer: put your head in the piano and
> see where it sounds best. That's where you should
> put your microphone.
>
> The longer answer: it depends on the sound you're
> going for, and also the kind of piano you're
> recording. Grand? Baby grand? Upright? Also, are
> you recording with two mics or just one? If two,
> try and use two of the same microphone model.
> This'll keep the frequency response of the
> instrument even across the stereo field. If you
> want a more aggressive sound, try miking closer to
> the hammers (but probably not right on top of
> them). You'll want to be around 6-8" above the
> strings, but you'll have to experiment to find the
> right spot. If you're recording in stereo, you may
> want to move your low mic a little farther back
> from the hammers. You want those low notes to
> register as actual notes, and not get too
> percussive. If you're using one mic, you'll
> probably want it to be centered around the middle
> of the range you're playing in. Some light
> compression wouldn't hurt, either.
>
> I should point out that the above advice is
> assuming you're not using an upright piano. If you
> are using an upright, it's going to be trickier to
> get a full sound out of it - again, use your ears
> and see where it sounds best.


It's a baby grand and I'll be using one Audio Technica AT2020. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be using a baby grand but that is up in the air. From past experience, recording guitar, it is super sensitive to deeper notes. I keep it about 6" to a foot away from my guitar with a pop filter, otherwise the guitar is just overbearing. I'll just have to wait and see how it responds to the piano. I assume that, like the guitar, it will be a bit sensitive and i may even have to back the mic out of the piano a foot or so. I'm also glad you mentioned compression, I hadn't even considered that. The parts that I'm going to record won't by any means be the driving force in the songs anyway so I hope that any discrepancies with quality are smoothed over by the accompaniment of the other instruments. I appreciate your advice and I will most definitely keep it in mind. I've always been very interested in the process of recording since I was a boy in my room fucking around with my 4 track. I only wish I had the time or opportunity to learn the right way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2009 01:58AM by your favorite effigy.

lincolnic, I'm just curious to your background. Clearly, you're well educated / experienced with music and recording technology. Where did you pick this all up if you don't mind me asking?

your favorite effigy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I've always been very interested
> in the process of recording since I was a boy in
> my room fucking around with my 4 track. I only
> wish I had the time or opportunity to learn the
> right way.


Fucking around with your 4 track is the right way!

If you've only got the one 2020 (which, btw, is a fine mic), I would agree with you - you'll probably want to back out of the piano a little. Try putting it halfway between the rim of the piano and the open lid as a starting point, and adjust as your ears guide you. You're definitely going to want to compress it if it's just the one mic, but don't overdo it (anything past 4:1 is probably overdoing it). Just hit it enough that it sounds more or less even, and it's not pumping.

lincolnic Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Fucking around with your 4 track is the right
> way!

Hell yeah! I love my 4 track! (Plus it's a Tascam 424, which exceedingly pleases my inner Vanderslice)