Figured I'd make a place where people can reference references that are made either directly or indirectly in tMG songs. This is probably more prominent in the older jams, but possibly spring up in the new ones as well.

I got:

This is probably the worst one in terms of directness, but I was finishing up The Sun Also Rises last week and read some dialogue where Brett states that someone has "scads of money" but not word for word.
In "Ethiopians," John sings "scads of money."

Now some better references:

(I mentioned this a few months back.)
In "Standard Bitter Love Song #8," the line "God will give him blood to drink" is taken verbatim from Hawthorne's The House of Seven Gables. It connotes a sense of cursing. In the story, the man who is killed as an innocent says this to the greedy man who accuses him of witchcraft. That man, Colonel Pyncheon, made the accusation because he wanted to take the innocent man's land. Pyncheon goes on to build a house on that forsaken land. He dies soon after this.

The concluding lines of "Cold Milk Bottle" are
"You're mean to me.
Why must you be mean to me?
You shouldn't forget you see
What you mean to me."

Billie Holiday sung a song "Mean to Me" back in the day:
"You're mean to me
Why must you be mean to me?
Gee, honey, it seems to me
You love to see me cryin'
I don't know why
I stay home each night
When you say you phone
You don't, and I'm left alone.
Singin' the blues and sighin'
You treat me coldly each day in the year
You always scold me
Whenever somebody is near, dear
I must be great fun to be mean to me
You shouldn't, for can't you see
What you mean to me"

---

Tiresias: Give thought to this, my son! All men will err. But when a man does err, he is not foolish or miserable if he does not become set in his persistence but seeks to right the wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2009 06:37PM by Captain Insano.

I'll throw out a few:

Grendel's Mother:
Grendel and his mother were monsters in Beowulf. It refferences how Grendel's mother is attacking the town for killing her son.

Ceature Song:
Shakespeare's The Tempest:
"O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here! How beauteous mankind is! O brave new world! That has such people in't!"

Song For John Davis:
1 Corinthians 13:11 :
"When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, and reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up my childish ways."

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SlowWestVulture
I'll throw out a few:

Grendel's Mother:
Grendel and his mother were monsters in Beowulf. It refferences how Grendel's mother is attacking the town for killing her son.

I believe also the line from Grendel's Mother "Fire overhead, water underneath" references the cave that Grendel and his mother live in. At least, it reminds me of Gardener's descriptions of the cave. (Call me out if I'm wrong).

my references are usually explicit, not occult - "scads of money" is a common enough phrase, I've never read the Sun Also Rises. a stray phrase isn't enough to count as a reference; you'd need some corroborating content.

</professor's son>

a reference that i have always enjoyed that is slightly less literary are the lines at the end of California Song that are taken from "You Really Got a Hold On Me" by the Miracles (at least I think, however I could be wrong since that song has been done by bajillions of people)

edit: wikipedia'd, it was the miracles

---

"There's good self-consciousness, and then there's toxic, paralyzing, raped-by-psychic-Bedouins self-consciousness." - David Foster Wallace



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2009 09:26PM by tkpeters.

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John
my references are usually explicit, not occult - "scads of money" is a common enough phrase, I've never read the Sun Also Rises. a stray phrase isn't enough to count as a reference; you'd need some corroborating content.

</professor's son>

I just got schooled...again...as usual.
But it was one of those things where it wasn't necessarily a reference, but a reminder I guess.
I was more or less like "Where the hell have I heard something along the lines of 'scads of money'...Oh yeah!"

The Sun Also Rises does a good job in showing Hemingway's trademark style of implied writing -- where he basically hits you with dialogue, action, dialogue, action, and then some environmental description when necessary. I think this makes for some enjoyable reading, but it's nothing you can be passive about. It's as if he expected the utmost attention in the reading of every word of his sentences, because he could take a few of those words and make them significant in the understanding of the entire book.

Also, I think I read somewhere Joan Didion was influenced by him, but I've yet to read one of her books (now's the perfect time though). And I think I read an interview where you mention her...maybe my memory fails me. But any recommendations from her oeuvre would rule!

Edit: Feel free to ignore the request for a rec. ... just revisited that interview real quick via google and I and see that Play It As It Lays seems to be the one to go with.

---

Tiresias: Give thought to this, my son! All men will err. But when a man does err, he is not foolish or miserable if he does not become set in his persistence but seeks to right the wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2009 10:12PM by Captain Insano.

Captain: Play It As It Lays (fiction) or Year of Magical Thinking (non)

Both are incredible, and pretty quick reads.

Also, on topic...

I've always loved the Biggie Smalls line from The Fall of the Star High School Running Back:
'Giving ends to your friends and it felt stupendous...'

Unexpected; appropriate; awesome.

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Eidyia

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SlowWestVulture
I'll throw out a few:

Grendel's Mother:
Grendel and his mother were monsters in Beowulf. It refferences how Grendel's mother is attacking the town for killing her son.

I believe also the line from Grendel's Mother "Fire overhead, water underneath" references the cave that Grendel and his mother live in. At least, it reminds me of Gardener's descriptions of the cave. (Call me out if I'm wrong).

that line is more likely a reference to various northern european (eg, viking) burial practices wherein important figures were lain in a bier atop a full-scale ship with their worldly posessions surrounding them. the entire thing would be set a blaze and sent out to sea. fire would be overhead. water would be underneath.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/2009 10:22PM by blackliner.

this is a weird thread, IMHO. seems a little odd to deconstruct the bones of an artist's work in front of him...

i mean, we're all pretty sure JD ain't cribbing antique verse a la Dylan.

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blackliner
seems a little odd to deconstruct the bones of an artist's work in front of him...

I'm pretty sure he'd rather us not self-censor our discussions here just because he might read them. I'd even venture a guess that he'd disappear from these parts completely if it became clear that we were doing just that.

i wasn't really thinking that, it just seems a little facile to just try to piece together strings of direct influences for (what i would consider) a sophisticated and highly literate body of writing.
i think JD's comment sums up my bemusement.

(not trying to be overly combative here, sorry. a little bit, though)

okay, i need to say more.

i highly distrust the trend we 21st century humans have of needing to dissect everything and anything we consider to be relevant--or merely interesting. the whole trend towards deconstructing things like literary and artistic canons merely out of political bile is profoundly distasteful to me (not to deny those detractors their entirely valid points regarding ethnic-, gender-, or other- disparities), and its preponderance in pop science has leeched into the over-analysis of every cultural stratum.
i think if we were selecting a particular song and discussing, without explicit intent, its merits and properties, a lot of these sort of ideas would spring up around it (the discussion), but to just open up and say, "okay, mountain goats owe debts to the following sources... GO!" is more what this feels like.

(no offense to you, Captain I, this is why i put "IMHO" in my initial discomfort)

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truckface
Captain: Play It As It Lays (fiction) or Year of Magical Thinking (non)

Both are incredible, and pretty quick reads.

Also, on topic...

I've always loved the Biggie Smalls line from The Fall of the Star High School Running Back:
'Giving ends to your friends and it felt stupendous...'

Unexpected; appropriate; awesome.

truckface, "year of magical thinking" has got to be one of my favorite books, ever, period.

it is unbelievable.

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blackliner
okay, i need to say more.

i highly distrust the trend we 21st century humans have of needing to dissect everything and anything we consider to be relevant--or merely interesting. the whole trend towards deconstructing things like literary and artistic canons merely out of political bile is profoundly distasteful to me (not to deny those detractors their entirely valid points regarding ethnic-, gender-, or other- disparities), and its preponderance in pop science has leeched into the over-analysis of every cultural stratum.
i think if we were selecting a particular song and discussing, without explicit intent, its merits and properties, a lot of these sort of ideas would spring up around it (the discussion), but to just open up and say, "okay, mountain goats owe debts to the following sources... GO!" is more what this feels like.

(no offense to you, Captain I, this is why i put "IMHO" in my initial discomfort)

I think the intention was more "ok, knowledge of the following sources could be interesting for some of you who don't know". Eg - I barely know who Biggie Smalls is and was very interested with the fall of the... information.

But if the you find it distasteful, you can always not read the thread. But there's nothing evil about analysis.

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blackliner
okay, i need to say more.

i highly distrust the trend we 21st century humans have of needing to dissect everything and anything we consider to be relevant--or merely interesting. the whole trend towards deconstructing things like literary and artistic canons merely out of political bile is profoundly distasteful to me (not to deny those detractors their entirely valid points regarding ethnic-, gender-, or other- disparities), and its preponderance in pop science has leeched into the over-analysis of every cultural stratum.
i think if we were selecting a particular song and discussing, without explicit intent, its merits and properties, a lot of these sort of ideas would spring up around it (the discussion), but to just open up and say, "okay, mountain goats owe debts to the following sources... GO!" is more what this feels like.

(no offense to you, Captain I, this is why i put "IMHO" in my initial discomfort)

I didn't wanna' make another one of those strange, controversial topics just for the sake of talk...or politics, or stirring pots. I also didn't want to make it feel as anyone owes debts...it's more along the lines of realizing the origin of something because it can lead a person to new things -- and this holds the possibility of people seeing these things as something beautiful, or aesthetic, and worthy of recognition. And I would hope people would take interest in those 'things,' like a song from Billie Holiday, a line from Biggie, or a book from Hawthorne.
I can also understand if they don't take interest.
I don't mean any harm. I mean, the references I posted came to me completely by accident, if it makes you feel any better.
Recently listening to Billie Holiday I heard some lines and connected the dots. Same thing with reading Hawthorne's novel.
It's not as if I went looking for such things. And if I did, I probably wouldn't sit there and try to pry apart the artistic aura that's given in order to do so...which is what I think you're saying.
I dunno.

I always found the expression "no offense" hilarious because it's a free pass for a verbal smackdown.
"Hey Alex, how's the soup I made?"
"No offense, but it kinda' tastes like a giraffe with rabies, and other depraving diseases, unleashed the reservoir of its bowels within this lovely bowl your mother got you for your surprising 2nd-week anniversary at the moonbounce factory."
"No offense taken!"

Not that I'm taking offense...I just can rarely pass up the opportunity to write something mildly absurd...sorry.

Yeah. I don't know...












I love you.












Edit for reason other than grammar:
Apparently rabies is something that you can really taste.

---

Tiresias: Give thought to this, my son! All men will err. But when a man does err, he is not foolish or miserable if he does not become set in his persistence but seeks to right the wrong.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 02:01AM by Captain Insano.

I feel that threads too often turn into meta-threads. Too quickly as well. You guys began discussing this thread in this thread within a few posts. This thread barely existed and you were talking about what this thread means.

Someone should start a meta-thread thread wherein you discuss specific threads.

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OrangeJulius
I feel that threads too often turn into meta-threads. Too quickly as well. You guys began discussing this thread in this thread within a few posts. This thread barely existed and you were talking about what this thread means.

Someone should start a meta-thread thread wherein you discuss specific threads.

Are you proposing that we take it upon ourselves to bend the space-thread continuum?

Sounds crazy, but that's almost my name (if you were taught the alpabet the right way, in cryptogram form)


More imperative edits for our future endeavors:

I can produce one point twenty-one GIGAWATTS!!@#$?

And, I thought this thread would be fun for its initial purpose....and now we're planning to fuck up continuums.
Turned out better than I thought!

---

Tiresias: Give thought to this, my son! All men will err. But when a man does err, he is not foolish or miserable if he does not become set in his persistence but seeks to right the wrong.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2009 03:57AM by Captain Insano.

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blackliner
"okay, mountain goats owe debts to the following sources... GO!" is more what this feels like.

i dont see it that way at all. no-ones accusing JD of plagiarism or whatev. i think the references add colour and flavour to John's lyrics, and i find them fascinating. for instance i'd completely missed the Tempest reference in Creature Song and I didn't know about the Billie Holliday line in Cold Milk Bottle and I'm sure there's plenty we'll never discover. i just dont see this as Deconstruction at all which is more about digging behind the author's intentions and pointing out the fallacy in their arguments iirc. and thats a thread for another time lol rite?

some may argue that in this day of the internets and wikipedia its too easy to find the sources, when before you had to read actual books, but thats another issue.

what i'm saying is imo bringing to light these references adds rather than subtracts to the mountain goats' body of work.

---

[kidsteel.bandcamp.com]

On Juhu Beach always makes me think of one the stories in Salman Rushie's East/West (the one about the writer. I can't for the life of me think of its name -- I read it a long time ago -- but I think it was in the West bit) but that's probably just because it's the first other place I'd registered the name.

---

Leaning. Rising. Listing. Recovering. Recovering. Recovering. Recovering.

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blackliner
okay, i need to say more.

i highly distrust the trend we 21st century humans have of needing to dissect everything and anything we consider to be relevant--or merely interesting. the whole trend towards deconstructing things like literary and artistic canons merely out of political bile is profoundly distasteful to me (not to deny those detractors their entirely valid points regarding ethnic-, gender-, or other- disparities), and its preponderance in pop science has leeched into the over-analysis of every cultural stratum.
i think if we were selecting a particular song and discussing, without explicit intent, its merits and properties, a lot of these sort of ideas would spring up around it (the discussion), but to just open up and say, "okay, mountain goats owe debts to the following sources... GO!" is more what this feels like.

(no offense to you, Captain I, this is why i put "IMHO" in my initial discomfort)

So what you are saying is that you have a disgust for when people mention refferencs of work in other peoples work?

WHAT?

i don't actually understand how you could've made that extrapolation; at least not from the quote you highlighted. i added the second post to suggest some reasons for why i made the first post. but by all means interpret it how you please.

I don't see the issue with sharing the source of phrases JD has taken directly - finding out that the line from Creature Song is taken from the Tempest is something which makes me go "oh yeah? cool". Doesn't alter my opinion of the song in any way, and I don't think it is anything near approaching a 'deconstruction'; I'm sure there are thousands of things JD is nodding towards to greater or lesser degrees in any one song, or even in any one phrase. Maybe some people just aren't interested by these facts which is fair enough, but I really don't think anyone would read this thread and think John was somehow stealing good lines from people - the words take on a whole new meaning in the context of a tMG song than that which they had in Shakespeare/Biggie Smalls/a Cheetos ad/whatever.

My only issue is that, as I touched on above, the idea of 'indirect references' is one which I don't think makes much sense. There may be tons of allusions which people hear in a song, some of which are good spots, some of which might have slipped in from the writer unconsciously, and a lot of which were never there in the first place.

Anyway...in that spirit, here's an obvious reference which I'm sure no-one had failed to hear already: 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' (referred to in Jaipur) is an old negro spiritual which has been covered dozens of times and, somewhat oddly, is the unofficial anthem of the England rugby team.

I don't really see how deconstructing an author's work became a bad thing. The reality is that the MG's music is historical, and it is going to be studied in the years to come much like the music of Dylan, Beatles etc. is being studied now (this is part of the reason it kills me to hear Mr. Darnielle state that he destroys some of his working copies -- If John Lennon had destroyed his tapes, I would have never have heard all the different single takes of Strawberry Fields, and that would be sad, like if Kerouac had destroyed the original manuscript of On the Road)

We're all here because we love the MG's music, so it seems like the proper place to participate in heavy analysis of the music. As far as listing references the MG's make to other works, I find it kinda interesting and useful. I remember on these threads one of the posters saying how he loved the line re: "giving ends to his friends and it felt stupendous" and giving props to the MGs for it, and Mr. Darnielle popped quickly in and gave proper attribution to Mr. Wallace for it. There are a lot of lines in MG tunes that are references, and I think it's kinda fun and enlightening to discuss it.

Anyhoo, my 2 cents. Back to the grind.

---

The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis

see, i've learned something from John: just say something--maybe it's not all fleshed out, but it's quick and direct--then go away and not dig yourself a hole for people to heap poop into. next time...

Back on topic.

If anyone could mention which theory of Freud's that "Running Away With What Freud Said" is refferencing, that'd be sweet.