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blackliner
see, i've learned something from John: just say something--maybe it's not all fleshed out, but it's quick and direct--then go away and not dig yourself a hole for people to heap poop into. next time...

as long as one person is understanding what I came to teach, I'm happy

I don't think anyone is heaping poop in your hole, I think the debate is just that deconstruction is not necessarily just a bunch of political bull.

I'm inclined to agree with you though. While I can certainly see the merits of analyzing tMG songs, hell, I do it all the time, I think there is an advantage to doing so within it's own set universe. Obviously intentional references are there for a reason, and even the more subtle or subconscious ones deserve to be looked at, but there is something to be said for limitation to the work itself. I tend to be more interested in the nuance of a line, as it fits into a song than its origin, and I'm only really interested in the latter if it affects the former.

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blackliner
see, i've learned something from John: just say something--maybe it's not all fleshed out, but it's quick and direct--then go away and not dig yourself a hole for people to heap poop into. next time...

dude, i'm not heaping poop, come on now.

---

The first thing that distinguishes a writer is that he is most alive when alone. - Martin Amis

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blackliner

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Eidyia

I believe also the line from Grendel's Mother "Fire overhead, water underneath" references the cave that Grendel and his mother live in. At least, it reminds me of Gardener's descriptions of the cave. (Call me out if I'm wrong).

that line is more likely a reference to various northern european (eg, viking) burial practices wherein important figures were lain in a bier atop a full-scale ship with their worldly posessions surrounding them. the entire thing would be set a blaze and sent out to sea. fire would be overhead. water would be underneath.

This makes a lot more sense.
I definitely enjoy analyzing things but the thing I feel most strongly about analysis is that if you take something apart, you should be able to put it back together again. I think it can be fun to get into the small details but if you're not seeing the big picture, it's pretty pointless.
I realize that we're just mentioning references here which is not heavy analysis but just thought I'd toss my two cents in for better or worse.

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Eidyia
I definitely enjoy analyzing things but the thing I feel most strongly about analysis is that if you take something apart, you should be able to put it back together again. I think it can be fun to get into the small details but if you're not seeing the big picture, it's pretty pointless.
I realize that we're just mentioning references here which is not heavy analysis but just thought I'd toss my two cents in for better or worse.

This is what I like about deconstruction. Sometimes you can't see the big picture without taking it apart first.

I always take this line in Minnesota as a reference to Plato's allegory of the cave:

while we stay here we imagine we're alive
we see shadows on the walls

Here's a good summary of the allegory from wikipedia:
Plato imagines a group of people who have lived chained in a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of the cave entrance, and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows. According to Plato, the shadows are as close as the prisoners get to seeing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall are not constitutive of reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners.

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SlowWestVulture
If anyone could mention which theory of Freud's that "Running Away With What Freud Said" is referencing, that'd be sweet.

A friend thinks it's the Oedipus Complex, though I'm not entirely convinced.

Wikipedia has a pretty good overview on psychoanalysis, you might want to check it out.

---

omg. omg. omg!
not a dude.
hugs-n-cupcakes.

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trurl
I always take this line in Minnesota as a reference to Plato's allegory of the cave:

while we stay here we imagine we're alive
we see shadows on the walls

That's excellent. That never occurred to me before.

The line carries a lot of weight with me when I think of it in terms of Plato. So I'll continue to think of it that way even if it turns out to be unintentional. :^þ

Edit: I'm still interested in learning if it was deliberate, though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2009 05:02PM by trurl.

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scotlanded

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SlowWestVulture
If anyone could mention which theory of Freud's that "Running Away With What Freud Said" is referencing, that'd be sweet.

A friend thinks it's the Oedipus Complex, though I'm not entirely convinced.

Wikipedia has a pretty good overview on psychoanalysis, you might want to check it out.

Thanks!

Oedipus Complex one of the few theories I know well and I can't see how it could be about it at all.

It's been described as a song about being in a long sleep, and you wake up and go outside and the world is wild and new (Who's bones are these?).

I can't see any way I can relate that to resentment for your father because you're in love with your mother as a child. It's not anything like "Freud Was Right" by Wckr Spgt, lol! (Which also touches on his psychosexual stages of development and the Electra complex)

Well the reasoning behind it was pretty well thought-out, I just can't remember it all. I had my own theory behind it being Oedipal but it's a long time to explain and I'm not sure that I myself buy it fully.

---

omg. omg. omg!
not a dude.
hugs-n-cupcakes.

This thread is ancient but I just wanted to add a little to it. Right now, I'm reading a mountain of poetry and writings because I'm taking two literature classes. And twice, I've come across works that I'm pretty sure that JD references. In the past, JD expressed his frustration with people wikipediaing song references and while I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with looking up references, encountering them in the things you're reading feels awesome. It's like finding treasure in an unexpected place. If you don't want to know the references I found, don't look below this line
______________________________________________
The first is the basis for the title Idylls of the King which is an epic by Lord Alfred Tennyson. Unfortunately, it wasn't assigned as reading and isn't in my book so I'm not quite sure what it's about. But being by Tennyson, I can sort of guess it's tone and what it might be about.
The second is the basis for the title of Then the Letting Go. I think it is from a poem by Emily Dickinson which is number 372 (or 341 depending on your book) which ends with the line "then the letting go"
I don't really want to go into analysis of the songs but if you've read 372, it gives a whole new meaning to Then the Letting Go.

ETA: The question of what Freudian theory "Running Away with What Freud Said" is a very interesting one. I have taken two classes primarily in Freudian theory so I'm going to try to take a stab at it. I honestly don't think it's based on any particular theory. I think it's more about a person being kind of a hypochondriac. I mean, if you study what Freud says, it's very easy to become rather paranoid that everything you're thinking and feeling is based on suppressed feelings and desires. It's enough to drive you a little nutty. I can tell you that when we were studying Freud, I definitely was over analyzing myself. The whole song seems kind of out of focus and frenetic. Especially with the way it's sung. "big ringing in the bones", "this world is really living". I dunno, all really speculation.

ETA2: Now that I think about it, the Oedipal complex does make sense if the song is about a madman who has just killed his father. Because then in some ways, he'd be proving Freud right that boys really do subconsciously desire to kill their fathers so they can have their mothers all to themselves sexually. But he is killing his father consciously so he's running away with what Freud said or mistaking what Freud meant. I mean, thoses lines "Big surprises, a lot of big surprises" and "who's bones are these? God please" don't exactly sound like things a sane person would think or say.


ETA3: I forgot that I had heard a recording of a live show where JD said this about RAWWFS, "i wrote this song about, how it got to be winter when i moved up here, and i got so depressed.... so i stayed drunk and high for several months.... (audience screams) yeah, that's pretty much how i felt about it... and then one day after a particularly long weekend that lasted about a month... (laughs)
i went downtown, i took the #41, and i went downtown and they had flowers in the planters, and i said 'whoa' (laughs) last time i came out it was too cold for flowers, (more laughs) then a few years later i wrote this, it was on Taboo VI the Homecoming, it's called Running Away With What Freud Said"
So, I'd go for interpretation Number 1 but I think in some ways, Number 2 is still valid. Songs can mean things their writers didn't intend them to mean.
(AND thus concludes the longest post I have ever written).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 01:51PM by Eidyia.

So due to the wonders of an ancient thread getting frontpage'd by a comment, here I be.

I was listening to NPR one day and there was an interview with a Poet Laureate, I don't remember her name, but she read a poem that reminded me a lot of Oceanographer's Choice. I wish I knew about this forum when I heard it, because I don't remember too much about it, but I remember there being a "guy in a skeleton costume" stabbing Superman. And some more of the initial imagery in the song.

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SlowWestVulture

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scotlanded

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SlowWestVulture
If anyone could mention which theory of Freud's that "Running Away With What Freud Said" is referencing, that'd be sweet.

A friend thinks it's the Oedipus Complex, though I'm not entirely convinced.

Wikipedia has a pretty good overview on psychoanalysis, you might want to check it out.

Thanks!

Oedipus Complex one of the few theories I know well and I can't see how it could be about it at all.

It's been described as a song about being in a long sleep, and you wake up and go outside and the world is wild and new (Who's bones are these?).

I can't see any way I can relate that to resentment for your father because you're in love with your mother as a child. It's not anything like "Freud Was Right" by Wckr Spgt, lol! (Which also touches on his psychosexual stages of development and the Electra complex)

Big city, wide corner,
[setting the scene, also setting that he is small compared to this world]
New flowers, cold comfort.
[flowers == romantic intent, cold comfort == not a lot of social support behind the decision.]
56 farenheit early in the morning.
Buses passing by black smoke in their wake.
[More scenery, it's hot for the morning and bound to get hotter. Black smoke implies something you'd want to shroud in mystery]
Big surprises, a lot of big surprises
[Revelation]
Bones ringing, running away with what Freud said.
[Excitement, read some things Freud said, thinks it means he's got a free pass to do whatever Freud said his unconscious mind thinks about]

New morning, world breathing,
[Spent the night at place to which he traveled. World breathing == despite what people said his world did not collapse.]
Far, far from home
[He's come a long way to get to where he is now, and is far from his literal home.]
Big ringing in the bones
[duh.]
Whose bones are these? God please.
[Moms]
Feeling the pumping, feeling the fresh blood pump inside
[He's at it again]
City's living, the city's truly living
[Trying to rationalize that people do many things, takes all kinds of fruit to make fruit cup.]
What's the difference? Running away with what freud said.
[No need stressin about it.]

I don't think it can be anymore transparent.

---

1840 - Hounds in Sonora, Mexico, invent music, write bogus "History of Music" to preserve anonymity.

Laughin Out Loud

little pretty obvious one:
in Sax Rohmer #1, "dawn goes down to day" is from "Nothing Gold Can Stay" by Robert Frost

good contribution, self

---

beep boop

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Mr Glass

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SlowWestVulture

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scotlanded

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SlowWestVulture
If anyone could mention which theory of Freud's that "Running Away With What Freud Said" is referencing, that'd be sweet.

A friend thinks it's the Oedipus Complex, though I'm not entirely convinced.

Wikipedia has a pretty good overview on psychoanalysis, you might want to check it out.

Thanks!

Oedipus Complex one of the few theories I know well and I can't see how it could be about it at all.

It's been described as a song about being in a long sleep, and you wake up and go outside and the world is wild and new (Who's bones are these?).

I can't see any way I can relate that to resentment for your father because you're in love with your mother as a child. It's not anything like "Freud Was Right" by Wckr Spgt, lol! (Which also touches on his psychosexual stages of development and the Electra complex)

Big city, wide corner,
[setting the scene, also setting that he is small compared to this world]
New flowers, cold comfort.
[flowers == romantic intent, cold comfort == not a lot of social support behind the decision.]
56 farenheit early in the morning.
Buses passing by black smoke in their wake.
[More scenery, it's hot for the morning and bound to get hotter. Black smoke implies something you'd want to shroud in mystery]
Big surprises, a lot of big surprises
[Revelation]
Bones ringing, running away with what Freud said.
[Excitement, read some things Freud said, thinks it means he's got a free pass to do whatever Freud said his unconscious mind thinks about]

New morning, world breathing,
[Spent the night at place to which he traveled. World breathing == despite what people said his world did not collapse.]
Far, far from home
[He's come a long way to get to where he is now, and is far from his literal home.]
Big ringing in the bones
[duh.]
Whose bones are these? God please.
[Moms]
Feeling the pumping, feeling the fresh blood pump inside
[He's at it again]
City's living, the city's truly living
[Trying to rationalize that people do many things, takes all kinds of fruit to make fruit cup.]
What's the difference? Running away with what freud said.
[No need stressin about it.]

I don't think it can be anymore transparent.

Very good interpretation!

Mind = blown

---

I make videos for the interwebs. Click to taste the insanity.
My band has a Facebook. This is the link.

i just freaked the fuck out that john was back and then i realized that this thread is old.

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ColinFeely
i just freaked the fuck out that john was back and then i realized that this thread is old.

God damn it, I did the same thing. Reading this thread is really making me wish John were still around....

Against Agamemnon is entirely about the tradgey Ajax.

But y'all knew that already.

Idylls of the King is a cycle of Arthurian poems - I read them at uni a long time ago. It's basically Arthur thinking about his knights, his love for Guinevere and her betrayal of him with Lancelot, and the rise and fall of his kingdom. Although the poems often feature other Arthurian figures like the Lady of the Lake, the central figure of Arthur links all the stories.

Autoclave has that Cheers reference in it.

Is Beat the Devil a reference to the 1953 film of the same name? I'm aware of the film, but I've not seen it. Just curious.

This thread is going off topic again, everybody

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OregonGoat

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ColinFeely
i just freaked the fuck out that john was back and then i realized that this thread is old.

God damn it, I did the same thing. Reading this thread is really making me wish John were still around....

When did John leave? Did he just stop posting or was there an official "I'm never coming back" kinda thing?

He just stopped posting. I could find the last post, but I'm lazy. Anyway--his second to last post (I think) wasn't about why he was leaving but it certainly gives a good indication as to such. The place had become really nasty at points among different members and the relationship he had with it was getting excessively complicated (eg. people coming in, demanding things for/of/at him, being dicks about it). I can't blame him, really.

I've always wondered if the line "the pirates life for me" was a nod to Pirate Jenny, from The Threepenny Opera.