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Randomized
I might be misinterpreting what you mean here, but Taboo IV isn't unreleased.

Yeah, sorry about that, certainly not what I was trying to say. Really just wanted to express that, personally, this was the first bit of information that I ran into as soon as my serious-tMg-obsession kicked in, and (being relatively new to John-knowledge) I mistakenly equated both ancient, lost albums and pretty much speculated that John's opinion on one old dusty album would be the same thing he'd think about the other..

If I would've known his position on HAFG, I probably would've let it sit on my desktop and collect cyber-dust. (or at least tried to)

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Randomized
And the note isn't a plea not to listen to Taboo IV, it's an apology for its quality. Artists' apologies for their work are not to be trusted.

Not trust him!? But it's John! Yeah, I still don't really know enough about John's opinions on his old stuff to comment on what his apologies mean so I'll take your word that John doesn't have too much of a gripe with his older material. On shows, you hear lots of "I played this song once when I recorded the track back however many years ago and I haven't touched it since." Then there's certain songs where he says "this is really, really old but I can vouch for this one." I'm never really sure exactly how he regards lots of his older material.

I didn't mean that you shouldn't trust John when he says he's not crazy about some of his older stuff. I meant that you should not let an artist's opinion of their work affect your opinion of the work.

That being said, if you waste any time listening to Taboo IV when you could be listening to We Shall All Be Healed, you get what you asked for.

Meh, the first few cassettes have a really great feel to them that isn't capture on anything else.
I definitely don't see listening to Taboo IV as a waste.

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dl5
Meh, the first few cassettes have a really great feel to them that isn't capture on anything else.
I definitely don't see listening to Taboo IV as a waste.

I view Taboo IV in the same light as Destroyer's Ideas for Songs. It's not actually "good", but it's worth listening to as a novelty sort of thing. Some songs will always begin to grow on you with time.

It's the little things like the ambiguity surrounding H&F that raises the mountain goats from a band worth loving to a cult worth following.

A lot of the real appeal of "lost" albums is the fact that they're "lost" and may very well remain that way. At first, the excitement is palpable when pieces or the whole treasure chest, so to speak, is "found." Then, inevitably, disappointment sets in. What the fuck was anyone even excited about? Some art is lost for a goddamn good reason.

This thread inspired me to finally seek out Hail and Farewell, Gothenburg, despite my better judgment, despite the realization that some mysteries should remain buried, despite that, were I an artist and had written something not intended for public consumption, I would be more than a little outraged at its sudden availability.

I stared idly at the title in my iTunes playlist for a few hours, engaged in a battle royale between what I thought was right and the sadistic joy of reaching for the once unreachable. My curiosity won out. I pressed play.

Needless to say, the veil removed, Hail and Farewell is astounding - had it been released, it may have been my favorite Mountain Goats album.

However, it can't be. Hell, I may never listen to it again, mostly because I felt such an acute discomfort throughout its duration - a voyeuristic kind of acknowledged shame. The feeling that, as much as I enjoyed this record, it was not mine to enjoy. The knowledge that I just might be totally bumming out someone whose art has entirely enhanced and improved my life in many ways.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that Hail and Farewell is a true rarity among most "lost" albums, as it fully lived up to the raging speculation that surrounded it for years. But I can't bear to even know that.

I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't care. But I do.

---

There is desperation and there is noise.

See, I heard a different story about Hail and Farewell, many years ago. This story makes listening to the album more like finally finding the spot after spending years digging up the backyard, less like I broke the lock on someone's diary.

And I did enjoy the "lost album" mythos. But "Four New Trees" and "Milk Song" and the way John's voice sounds in this recording, clear and harrowing, hinting at the real cost of the wheelgrind, and "What is there left in a city like this, when everyone you know has gone"...I like that more.

the fact that you found this album somehow is exciting.

my feelings regarding 'h & f' are this: people make mistakes. and our own personal perspective on our own 'mistakes' may very well be quite different from other people's perspectives on those 'mistakes'. the fact of the matter is this album exists, people have copies of it, it is intriguing to any m.g. completist, and it may quite possibly be a fulfilling experience for said completist. the cat is out of the bag. i firmly believe a fan should be allowed to listen to this album. i mean, come on, darnielle's personal feelings about it become a moot point after it has left his clutches. it sounds mean, but we are his fans! what, am i going to laugh and point fingers at darnielle because he laid something on tape that later he felt maybe he shouldn't have? honestly, if he didn't want anyone to hear it, why did he record it in the first place? and i also take in consideration the quality factor of the actual product itself; if the quality is poor than no one should make money off it. but, i am also not speaking about a bootleg operation either; that involves money changing hands and i do think that would be wrong. i am sorry, but it is unfair to someone who ranks the mountain goats as one of the most rewarding musical experiences of his life! yeah yeah, life is unfair. so, in that mindset, i repeat, the album is out there and i want to listen to it damnit! if it is a pandora's box, call me pandora. things we do in life, mistake or not, we must live with the consequences.

[request for unreleased material deleted]

and yes, i am willing to suffer the consequences of john's wrath and the fans who might disagree with me. read any sort of literature on a "junkie" and it will tell you that all that matters to the "junkie" is "junk". in this case, the "junk" is mountain goats songs.

i am really curious to see how brave anyone is. and i especially call out those who own it; more or less complicity will not improve your state of nobility in the matter. do you not agree?

requests for unreleased material will be deleted and your post has been changed accordingly. People can talk about the album all day if they like, but using forums I myself am hosting at no cost as a place to do something I have asked people not to do is really uncool.

The tape of HAFG is mastered too fast, by the way - the voice and guitar on it are about a full tone higher than they were actually performed. I wasn't gonna ruin people's enjoyment of it by telling y'all this, but if people insist on "it's not what you'd prefer, it's my right to your private stuff," then they can live with the truth of the matter. Word!

(this sort of "I have a right to your private stuff," by the way, is why the All Hail West Texas outtakes - about fifteen songs - have all been destroyed; I would eventually have made them available for free, but the HAFG affair made it clear to me that if I wasn't willing to cede control over my own material completely, I had to kinda take radical steps)

(and finally, I hope people won't think I'm fuming mad or anything - I'm not! shit happens, album's easy to find now. The forums I am personally hosting though? Not the place to request material that I didn't want released. I love everybody OK thx bye!)

Monkeyskull you're on some whack ass bullshit there. It's erronous to assume that the fan/consumer has any right to material that the artist doesn't want out there. You say then it shouldn't have been recorded in the first place, but that's BS too: people record songs all the time that are not meant for consumption by the greater public: songs for their significant others, songs for their friends birthdays, songs for their children, etc. These are private things, and just because you happen to be a fan of the artist making those songs does not mean you have some kind of inherent right to them. THEY ARE NOT FOR YOU. THEY ARE NOT MEANT TO BE SHARED. I do tend to believe that at a certain point an artist relinquishes control (or at least a certain kind of control) over his art, but it's certainly not before he's even decided whether the work merits publishing.

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monkeyskull
read any sort of literature on a "junkie" and it will tell you that all that matters to the "junkie" is "junk".

I believe this junk is meant to remain in the trunk.

dude's just trolling anyway so whatever

BEGONE TROLL!

I couldn't have said it any better Jeb.

Here's what I found when I googled "hail and farewell gothenburg":



Crane is a good song. One Frozen River too.

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jebreject
yeah, i downloaded it when it first leaked, but i haven't been able to bring myself to actually listening to it

then why did you download it if it is "NOT FOR YOU"??

this is a discussion forum. why is everyone so upset?

i dont know what trolling is.

john: what i understood was that there wasnt to be links posted. and also that you were trying to refrain from reading these forums. i dunno. i think i respect you and your music; i bought legitimate copies of your work; i do not use a 'shareware' program like a lot of the other 'fans' here do. i think, no wait, i know those comments were directed toward me specifically. but what about the people who posted that they already have this 'lost album'? are you going to ask they give it back?? to erase the tunes from their memories??? if youd rather save face and speak in private i think you noted my email. but please, for chrissake, dont get mad at me.

also, where did i say 'i have a right to your private stuff'?? i never said that. it IS public domain ("A creative work is said to be in the public domain if there are no laws which restrict its use by the public at large. For instance, a work may be in the public domain if no laws establish proprietary rights over the work, or if the work or its subject matter are specifically excluded from existing laws." now because people attest to having copies of it beside you, john. it is unfortunate, but let's face facts.

All I wanna know is, when I can hear 'A Version of Frankie Valli And The Four Seasons'? (or aVoFVatFS as its more commonly known as) I gots to hhear that.

be careful what you ask for, you might get yelled at.

1. I downloaded it because my curiousity got the better of me. That doesn't change anything.
2. The rule wasn't "don't talk about the album," it was "don't ask people to share it with you or send it to you." Evidently you broke that rule. I don't know, 'cause I didn't see your post before it was edited.
3. where did you say you had a right to hear his "private stuff"? how about here:

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the fact of the matter is this album exists, people have copies of it, it is intriguing to any m.g. completist, and it may quite possibly be a fulfilling experience for said completist. the cat is out of the bag. i firmly believe a fan should be allowed to listen to this album. i mean, come on, darnielle's personal feelings about it become a moot point after it has left his clutches. it sounds mean, but we are his fans! what, am i going to laugh and point fingers at darnielle because he laid something on tape that later he felt maybe he shouldn't have? honestly, if he didn't want anyone to hear it, why did he record it in the first place?

4. you seem to misunderstand what "public domain" actually means. "public domain" means that the rights to the work are not held by a specific author, but rather the public at large. many works of art that are public domain are so because the copyright on the work has expired. john certainly has proprietary rights over his albums, which means HaFG is decidedly NOT in the public domain.

well, fine. i should not have posted a request. i am sorry. but, i think you should take it easy, jeb. what i did was simply ask someone to maybe get me a copy of it, if they wanted to, and that was against the rules, i suppose. i misinterpreted the idea of public domain as well. what i did not do is download HAFG, which is stealing for all intents and purposes. so you getting upset and standing by john's concern as if it were your own is, forgive me, a little silly. neither of us, i assume, are lawyers. we are opining, and that's fine if a little tension develops. (i don't think swearing or name calling is appropriate.) just think before you start stamping your feet and crying foul. pot meet kettle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2007 03:20PM by monkeyskull.

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John
I wasn't gonna ruin people's enjoyment of it by telling y'all this, but if people insist on "it's not what you'd prefer, it's my right to your private stuff," then they can live with the truth of the matter. Word!

here john is directly quoting. see that? i dont want to get into semantics but i did not DIRECTLY say that. and what you did, jeb, is imply the same quote from a group of sentences. it is not the same thing. if i do not say something as written i should not be quoted as saying so. anyone can draw their own conclusion from context, make up a quote, and tell someone they said that. but it doesn't make sense if they DID NOT DIRECTLY SAY IT and it is also a lie. you can quote me on that.

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monkeyskull
honestly, if he didn't want anyone to hear it, why did he record it in the first place?

Jeb's already made the point here, but I just wanted to say that this kind of reasoning makes me physically sick.

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There is desperation and there is noise.