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Black Amnesia

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monkeyskull
honestly, if he didn't want anyone to hear it, why did he record it in the first place?

Jeb's already made the point here, but I just wanted to say that this kind of reasoning makes me physically sick.

Seconded

point taken.

ok ok ok. give yourselves a round of applause and pat yourselves on the back.

Well, that didn't take long.

On a different but related matter:

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monkeyskull
my feelings regarding 'h & f' are this: people make mistakes. and our own personal perspective on our own 'mistakes' may very well be quite different from other people's perspectives on those 'mistakes'. the fact of the matter is this album exists
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so, in that mindset, i repeat, the album is out there and i want to listen to it damnit! if it is a pandora's box, call me pandora. things we do in life, mistake or not, we must live with the consequences
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and yes, i am willing to suffer the consequences of john's wrath

You're stating a false equivalence: you are saying that because you are willing to treat yourself in some way, another person must consent to being treated in that way. It's a common trick, but it's not a valid argument. Perhaps this other person wants to treat himself and his differently than you do yourself and yours? Only if you imagine yourself to be the template of consciousness is this reasoning valid.

You know what, I'm in the wrong here. I was gonna try to avoid these forums and when I saw the album title I just sorta flew off the handle. I apologize, most of all to monkeyskull - I may have disagreements about this stuff but it's not really my place to get all aggro about it. For those who're curious, yeah for sure the whole Gothenburg deal has had a chilling effect on me - I now delete/erase/destroy anything I don't feel like I'll wanna release, since I don't want this sort of thing to happen again. That makes me sad, 'cause I used to have archives of all sorts of weird stuff that at some point would all have been given out for free. New world, different rules!

Anyhow yeah though. Monkeyskull is not a bad apple, I'm just kinda touchy about this subject, since it does seem like people often say "hey, if you didn't want people to hear it, you shouldn't have even recorded it," which is, as I say, pretty limiting to one's creativity.

Heh, I wasn't even aware that the album wasn't officially released before coming into this topic.

Of course, if the album was never leaked, and we had found out about its existence, we'd all no doubt have gone rabid over it in every detail and became obsessed over trying to find it. Then, when we failed, someone would have created a topic about it, containing three pages of whining at John for not letting us hear it, and then John trying to make us all feel guilty for wanting the album.

Whatever happens, someone moans.

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MAitchison
Of course, if the album was never leaked, and we had found out about its existence, we'd all no doubt have gone rabid over it in every detail and became obsessed over trying to find it.

No way, knowledge of this album has probably been around since its inception. I remember getting suspicious when Nall put the lyrics to Hail & Farewell, Gothenburg on his website, but that was just because John sent them his way. H&FG then kinda left my mind until it surfaced a long time later on the mailing list.

There are some bootlegs that have The Mountain Goats playing Hello, Old Rabbit and Ghosts and if that's all I would have been able to hear from that album, it would've been fine enough.

..but I am not a strong-willed man when it comes to unheard music from my favorite band.

I think you're being hard on yourself, John. I think it's perfectly valid for you to have some investment on what happens in your backyard, and what happens with your stuff. monkeyskull's arguments are spurious. I'm sure they are not much reflection on his worth as a person, being as they are in line with the folk morality as it were, and it would be going too far to discriminate against him personally for making these claims - but I don't think that has happened yet, and is likely to happen.

I don't necessarily think less of people for downloading this album. I didn't know about it until I came across this thread and I admit I poked around for it a bit... until I really thought about John's (and well any artist) wishes. I sort of realized if I downloaded than I would feel partially responsible for discouraging artists to record music that's so personal they don't want others to hear.

All this talk of destroying songs forever is breaking my heart. Seriously.

It'll be okay Megan- just think about all of the songs he wrote/thought of and never recorded!

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Prairie
It'll be okay Megan- just think about all of the songs he wrote/thought of and never recorded!

A word of advice, if anyone ever offers you a job counseling the suicidal, or something? Don't take it.

I'm just going to go rock back and forth in a corner now...

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Good Intentions
monkeyskull's arguments are spurious. I'm sure they are not much reflection on his worth as a person, being as they are in line with the folk morality as it were, and it would be going too far to discriminate against him personally for making these claims - but I don't think that has happened yet, and is likely to happen.

word.

monkeyskull i ain't tryin' to tear you down or anything so i'm sorry for cursing but what you're arguing is pretty offensive to me and, well, based on bad logic. so if i'm being harsh, i apologize for that, but i still think you're wrong. doesn't mean i think you're a terrible person or anything, just wrong about this one thing.

(i really wish i didn't have to make these kinds of disclaimers)

(anyway, i'm more than willing to just drop it though i do think it's absolutely a discussion worth having, re: what an artist's rights are over his own work, what the fan has a right to demand, etc.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2007 07:57PM by jebreject.

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megan_d
All this talk of destroying songs forever is breaking my heart. Seriously.

me too, but so it goes.

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megan_d

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Prairie
It'll be okay Megan- just think about all of the songs he wrote/thought of and never recorded!

A word of advice, if anyone ever offers you a job counseling the suicidal, or something? Don't take it.

I'm just going to go rock back and forth in a corner now...

Point taken. Anyway, for someone in that situation my advice would just be "listen to the mountain goats" which wouldn't necessarily help anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2007 08:10PM by Prairie.

this thread feels like home.

I own this album.

what's your email address monkey?

Im also a singer/songwriter, and i will say that an artist does not record something for their own enjoyment.You dont record stuff to just let it sit in a box somewhere, or on a shelf in your room.I dont know of any other artist who records music for it strictly to remain unreleased.If your recording then that means you want that music to be heard.I dont care if it's just a voice and guitar demo recorded on a shitty radioshack taperecorder like i use,you want someone to hear it.If you dont,then erase the shit! Some of my favorite tapes are demos made by artist who recorded on a shitty tape player just to get the idea down.I like those demos cause the songs are such a pure idea at that point,you get the songs as they are coming through, shal i say.Not after its been toyed with over and over again in the studio.I like lenny kravitz's idea of demos.. "For me, the first time I do it is always the best,When you cut a demo, even though it can sound like sh-t, you just don't get that same vibe when you're in the studio. You're trying to live up to the demo and it's not as cool. I did them once or twice and never made a demo again."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2007 12:35AM by Dilaudid.

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John
You know what, I'm in the wrong here. I was gonna try to avoid these forums and when I saw the album title I just sorta flew off the handle. I apologize, most of all to monkeyskull - I may have disagreements about this stuff but it's not really my place to get all aggro about it. For those who're curious, yeah for sure the whole Gothenburg deal has had a chilling effect on me - I now delete/erase/destroy anything I don't feel like I'll wanna release, since I don't want this sort of thing to happen again. That makes me sad, 'cause I used to have archives of all sorts of weird stuff that at some point would all have been given out for free. New world, different rules!

Anyhow yeah though. Monkeyskull is not a bad apple, I'm just kinda touchy about this subject, since it does seem like people often say "hey, if you didn't want people to hear it, you shouldn't have even recorded it," which is, as I say, pretty limiting to one's creativity.

thanks john. i appreciate that.

as for the rest of you, come on! WE DO NOT LIVE IN A LOGICAL WORLD! it must feel very satisfying to grasp the concepts of a logic textbook so effortlessly; some of you are blessed with the gift of argument. great. there are rumors abound of the great demand for men and women who can outthink others; everyone loves a guy who can point out your flaws in thought!stop pushing it in my face and i assume others. ok, i am wrong, i am illogical. so f-in what! this is a place for discussion, sometimes very high up there and sometimes dumb and silly. i obviously touched a nerve. but this intellectual brow-beating is just stupid.

my dad can beat up your dad.

i think the whole HAFG thing is spilt milk, and that was all i was trying to say. i was not making some grand statement on the rights to ownership of fans in regard to musicians. i think some of this was blown way out of proportion and uncalled for.

did we ever hear anything from lou reed when that acetate was found at a garage sale? seriously. did the remaining members of the v.u. put up such a fuss? sorry john, but you need to be a little more thick-skinned about this. YOU created the material and YOU were responsible for it getting out into the world. and it did, somehow. no one pried it from your clutching fists. that is what i meant by "honestly, if he didn't want anyone to hear it, why did he record it in the first place?" (it is not a secret -there is a sort of phenomena of people documenting their own lives so that other people will investigate them, whether you are a narcissist, serial killer, or just plain lonely. whoever does not have a myspace account in this forum please stand up. i bet dollars to donuts alot of you are still sitting.) in turn you have devised a solution of destroying material you do not want people to hear. it is regrettable. you seem to have learned a hard lesson now, but it is spilt milk. that is the world we live in: it can be cruel that way and illogical.

i want to state for the record, listening to the lyrics you write paint a picture of persons who are intimate and aware of that very same world; that is why i like listening to any sort of song you write. and that is why i think this whole discussion is kinda silly. i mean, the notion that HAFG shoudn't be heard, well, tough, its out there. it is ironic that the ones who are the most vehement about it not being heard are the ones who have heard it! that doesnt strike you as odd?

(oh wait, am i 'begging the question'?)

so, thanks john. no hard feelings? i love ya buddy!

yeah, its like when people gripe about their homemade porno being all over the place, well, what did you expect??

dilaudid, finally someone not just wrapped up in the emotion of it all.

you can find my address on my profile.

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Dilaudid
what's your email address monkey?

Oh come on. No, seriously, you have got to be kidding me.

yeah no hard feelings at all

it is my preference that people not listen to this stuff - obviously nobody's gotta respect my preference, though it's kinda weird that people are so cavalier about it ("well, I want it; end of story" - it hurts my feelings. If that's "thin-skinned," well, whatever y'know? That's how I am. I make myself available to people who like my stuff, and I'm open with them; it's one of the things that makes me different from other music dudes. It's gonna be a forum rule that requesting stuff like this will result in thread deletion etc. - them's the breaks.

to answer your question though - everybody who records makes HUNDREDS of songs they don't want anyone to hear, if not thousands. One learns from recording stuff. It's a valuable process, and it can be instructive to return to stuff and see how it went - what the process was. Now I know better than to leave it hanging around, and I destroy stuff I don't want people to hear. Such is the world, nothing to do about it!

(Your whole "only people who are willing to satisfy my request are being reasonable" schtick is a li'l bogus tho you gotta admit - my position, that people ought to respect my wishes and not listen to something I didn't choose to release, is as valid as yours & worth your consideration)